"If your eye causes you to sin," said Jesus, "get rid of it. You would be better off to go into God's kingdom with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell. The worms there never die, and the fire never stops burning."
Here are the last two paragraphs responding to what Jesus was referring to.
When Jesus spoke of the undying worms and unquenchable fire, he was apparently alluding to Isaiah 66:24. Regarding 'the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against [God],' Isaiah says that "their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.' Jesus and his listeners knew that these words in Isaiah referred to the treatment of the carcasses of those not deserving burial.
Therefore, Jesus used the valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, as a fitting symbol of death without hope of a resurrection. He drove this point home when he warned that God 'can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.' (Matt 10:28, NAB) Gehenna is a symbol of eternal death, not eternal torture."
My basic response to the Watch Tower tract is simple. Should I fear death?
I remember years prior to my conversion asking Christians why can't God just annihilate us. Why does there have to be a hell? In other words, I wanted to have happen to me what JWs say will happen to unbelievers. I was not afraid of death as defined by the Watch Tower at all.
What could Jesus possibly be referring to when He says in John 5,
Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Jesus is teaching about the future resurrection in which all men are raised. Those who committed the evil deeds shall rise to a judgment. Is this a judgment that last 5 minutes? So what if I am judged? Have you ever stood in judgment and wanted to escape it? Of course we all have. Why do we wish to escape it? Simply because of our guilt. If we disappear into annihilation, where is the guilt?
But there is more than this taught in the New Testament. Paul tells us in Romans 2
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
How do we receive wrath if we are annihilated? Is not the contrast with Eternal Life? Now obviously the Jehovah's Witness will say "yes". Why? Because they see living and being alive in contrast with nonexistence. The Bible is clearly seeing a different contrast. Eternal Life with God and living in peace as his image bearers as opposed to the kind of life under God's wrath and judgment.
One more text. Paul teaches us in Thessalonians that God's retribution against the wicked is coming. Out of this judgment the church will be delivered on the Last Day or the Day of the Lord.
1Th 5:3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
Again, what kind of destruction are we talking about? If it is instantaneous annihilation, why should I fear? How is retribution received if we are not existing to receive it?
Again the question is obvious. Should you fear God's wrath? If you are a God-hater, keep in mind you are as Paul speaking by the Spirit says, "a child of wrath".
8 comments:
Why did you reject the teaching about hell from JWs when that was what made sense to you years ago? Literal hell-fire DOESN'T make sense. The Scripture you quote from John 5:28 & 29 shows that the dead will be resurrected that are in God's memory, and from THAT POINT on they will be judged according to what they do--after they learn what the truth is about God & His purposes & requirements, during the Millennial Reign by Christ. Nowhere in the Scriptures that you quote or cite is there any indication that people who are wilfull, deliberate sinners will be tortured forever. The words used are "perish" or "destroyed." These are synonyms for annihilation. That is a fitting punishment for a person who likes to sin and will not change.
And we are not a "man-following" religion. Far from it. We follow Jesus Christ and worship Jehovah as the Most High.
Howdy Pam,
Good to hear from you. I'll try to answer each question and statement in order.
1) "Why did you reject the teaching about hell from JWs when that was what made sense to you years ago?"
I think you have read your definitions of terms into what I wrote. When I wrote about "Christians" telling me about hell, I was not referring to JWs. I have never rejected the teaching about hell from JWs that made sense to me because I did not know any Jehovah's Witnesses.
I was making reference to my Baptist Christian friends that taught me about hell while I was an unbelievers. My response to them was "Why can't God just annihilate us? Why does He have to send us to hell?" In other words, my response was similar to what JWs actually believe. This was by coincidence. Again, I was not familiar with JW theology at the time. The Bible was very clear to me. Hell was real.
2) "Literal hell-fire DOESN'T make sense."
Dead bodies rising from the dead doesn't make sense to atheists. What does this prove? Besides, what do you mean by literal hell fire? Obviously the Bible may use symbolic language to describe a reality such as "their worm does not die".
As I stated in my post, unbelievers will bear the wrath of God. Whatever that means, we know one thing. It cannot mean annihilation. Annihilated people do not bear anything for they do not exist.
3) "The Scripture you quote from John 5:28 & 29 shows that the dead will be resurrected that are in God's memory, and from THAT POINT on they will be judged according to what they do--after they learn what the truth is about God & His purposes & requirements, during the Millennial Reign by Christ."
Keep in mind that I am an Amillenialists. There is nothing in the text about a literal Millenial reign that explains to resurrected people God's purpose.
My point in quoting this text is to demonstrate that there is a bodily and final resurrection. There is a contrast in this resurrection. Those who rise to live with Christ and receive mercy and those who come under His judgment.
4) "The words used are "perish" or "destroyed." These are synonyms for annihilation."
This needs to be demonstrated. I understand that we might see it from your perspective. Keep in mind that you are still assuming this synonymous understanding of these terms.
As I argued, Jesus takes earthly things that we see )Gehenna for example) and uses it to explain God's future judgment in the resurrection of the wicked.
5) "And we are not a "man-following" religion. Far from it. We follow Jesus Christ and worship Jehovah as the Most High."
I say JWs are following a man-centered religion because it is all about man. The reason why Arminianism often (historically speaking) leads to Unitarianism and a denial of the Deity of Christ is because man is not that bad of a sinner. You believe man has a free-will to choose God. You believe man is not really that dead (which is why I am writing my recent posts arguing against many within the SBC who desire to reject Calvinism).
There is more that could be said about each of these things but I wish not to write a book.
In conclusion my question remains, "Why should I fear death?" Something which you never addressed. Perhaps you may like to in the future.
If I am right and you are wrong, then you will face hellfire (whatever that may mean). If you are right and I am wrong, then so what?
I must confess that much of this centers on our understanding of Christ and what His Substitutionary suffering and death means. If you would like to comment on the recent posts on that more fundamental subject, please do.
God Bless
Hi Howard....
I appreciated your responding to my post.
I wasn't clear in my question. I really should've worded it more succinctly. I should've asked: Why did you ultimately reject the idea about hell that had made sense to you years ago? That idea, that God would NOT roast people in a fire forever with no chance of relief, happens to be the one that JWs teach today, but I realized that you didn't originally learn it from JWs. It was something that made sense to you upon reflection on the matter.
Indeed, it was a coincidence that your original thinking is what JWs actually teach.
So now you have rejected that thinking and you believe that hell-fire and people burning for all time is real. I will try to understand why you changed your mind on this by going over your points in response to me.
You cannot see why "annihilation" would be an appropriate punishment for wilfull sinners that do not repent. They need to be conscious to "bear the wrath of God." I ask, "Why so?" Hasn't a dead wolf or coyote "born the wrath" of a farmer and his gun? I would say so.
You mention that you are an "Amillenialist." Could you explain what this is? I can't imagine anyone rejecting the Bible teaching that Christ will reign for a thousand years. But perhaps this is what you are saying--that you reject this?
Why wouldn't we take the words "perish" or "destroy" to mean what people normally understand these words to mean? They speak of the elimination of something, the death of someone or something. If someone is dead, that person doesn't know anything. He is really DEAD, not alive somewhere else, or on another plane or dimension. (Eccles.9:5..."The dead know not anything.")
You asked the question, "Why Should I Fear Death?" And, "If you are right and I am wrong, then so what?"
If I am right & you are considered irredeemedly wicked by God, then you will go off into oblivion and will never enjoy the wonderful paradise on earth that will be shaped for those people who want to live according to God's requirements. You will not be able to enjoy your dream house, your acreage wherewith you can plant gardens and stable horses and other animals if you wish, swim in your pools and streams, eat wonderful clean, healthy food, get to know your ancestors when they are resurrected....and on and on. You will miss out on a life full of benefits for yourself. That is "what."
Christ suffered in substitution for us, and this means that we can escape the inherited death that Adam brought upon us. Christ died in our behalf. If we accept this and don't wilfully sin, as Adam did, we can live in paradise forever.
Howdy Pam,
Good to hear back from you. Looking at the time of your post, you must be a night owl. :-)
1) "So now you have rejected that thinking and you believe that hell-fire and people burning for all time is real. I will try to understand why you changed your mind on this by going over your points in response to me.
Just to be clear, I have never changed my mind on this thinking. Basically, I remember asking God to not punish me but instead to annihilate me. I did not want to bear His wrath eternally.
I understand how texts may be interpreted as you have (as in your reference to certain verses and an animal being shot). Yet there are others that show us a bigger picture. Nevertheless, those texts that I think demonstrate my position are simply fit into your theology. So there really isn't going to be any convincing each other.
Basically if you are right, then I get what I hoped God would give me as an unbeliever. But...
2) "Christ suffered in substitution for us, and this means that we can escape the inherited death that Adam brought upon us. Christ died in our behalf. If we accept this and don't wilfully sin, as Adam did, we can live in paradise forever."
I believe this to some extent. I believe in original sin and guilt. I believe man is currently dead in his sin and does not have the ability to choose God but must be raised from spiritual death to spiritual life. I believe in substitutionary atonement. I believe Christians will live on earth in the "age to come".
As for your "willful sin" I see that Christ is not a sufficient Savior. What is a sin that is not willful? The fact is, we all continue to sin and struggle in it. Because Jesus is the eternal Son of God, He is able to save His elect perfectly. He is able to take wicked dead rebellious sinners and justify them by faith alone.
3) "You mention that you are an "Amillenialist." Could you explain what this is?"
An Amillenialist believes Christ's 1000 year reign is now, not some future time.
Your position is similar to many Evangelicals today for both came out of the same era. The Dispensational viewpoint is a very recent viewpoint just as your is of very recent origin.
Take a look at Rev 20 and contrast it with Jesus' teaching of the resurrection in John 5:25-28. The parallel is quite striking.
Kim Riddlebarger has a series on Amillenialism on his Blog. He is very easy to listen. He is a former book store owner and former Dispensationalist. His lectures would help explain Amillenialism far better than I could. I think you would enjoy them. Just check the right side of his Blog and scroll down.
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com
God Bless
Hi, Howard....
I just wrote a lengthy comment and it got erased when I jiggled a couple of cords here. Oh well, I'll try again.
I am a night-owl, but try to set myself on everybody else's schedule. It hasn't been working very well. I get out of work at 11 P.M. and it helps often to go online and see if anyone has responded to me, and after awhile I can get sleepy enough to go to sleep (sometimes 3 or 4 in the A.M.).
Anyway, I agree that we won't be able to convince each other of our points of view. I also agree that the Bible shows us a "bigger picture" of what God is all about, and His character, and what is in store for His creations. He is merciful and just, and would not do anything that even mortal man thinks is sadistic.
Christ is indeed a "sufficient Savior." His sacrifice has covered all sin that we inherited from Adam, the sins that sometimes we aren't even aware that we are committing--there are so many of them. But Scripture indicates that there is a type of sin that Jesus' sacrifice does not cover, and not because his sacrifice is not good enough! John said:
"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. THERE IS A SIN THAT LEADS TO DEATH. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and [yet] there is sin that does not lead to death." (I John 5:16,17, NIV)
Apparently there are 2 types of sin.
John was speaking to his Christian brothers, those that had accepted Christ's ransom and become believers, practicing the Christian way. Since all humans sin--because of Adam's fall--the sins that John and his brothers committed would be covered under Christ's sacrifice. Those would be those sins that we usually aren't even aware that we're doing. Perhaps a fleeting twinge of hatred for somebody (which Jesus taught was as good as murder), or something like that, that we are consciously trying to overcome. Even sins that are more serious that we commit in a moment of weakness, such as having sex outside of marriage, but then repenting and resolving to do it no more.
The sins that "lead to death" would be those that are willful, deliberate, & purposely rebellious, such as what Adam did in the GoE. They are sins such as Jesus accused the Pharisees of--wilfully rejecting God's laws and God's own Son, their King. They accused him of working for the Devil instead of admitting that he was using the Holy Spirit to do his works. That is the "unforgiveable sin." So, if a person deliberately goes against what he knows God wants him to do, and practices such sins, with no repentance from his heart, that person is destined for "Gehenna," or, annihilation.
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss THEY ARE CRUCIFYING THE SON OF GOD ALL OVER AGAIN AND SUBJECTING HIM TO PUBLIC DISGRACE." (Hebrews 6:4-6, NIV)
Sorry for the caps, but I'm just rying to emphasize. Paul is speaking of this sin that leads to death, sin that Christ's crucifixion does not cover, because the person who commits these deliberate sins is denigrating Christ and causing him, by their actions, to be disgraced. Paul goes on:
"If we DELIBERATELY KEEP ON SINNING after we have received the knowledge of the truth, NO SACRIFICE FOR SINS IS LEFT, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." (Hebrews 10:26,27, NIV)
This "fire" that will be waiting for those enemies of God is said to "CONSUME" them. To me this shows, once again, that they will be obliterated. Fire is used as a metaphor for complete destruction.
You say that Christ is "able to take wicked dead rebellious sinners and justify them by faith alone." Why would Christ want to? Doesn't Isaiah say:
"Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of righteousness they GO ON DOING EVIL and regard not the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10, NIV)
Wouldn't Christ be interested in protecting those people who WANT to do what is right? How could they live in true peace if there were wicked people still running around doing their selfish activities?
You mention my viewpoint is being of "very recent origin." Not so....I go back to everything the entire Bible says. What I believe rests on what the Bible has taught for thousands of years.
I don't understand how anyone can think that the Millennial Reign of Christ is going on now. Rev. 20 shows that before the Reign starts, Satan will be put out of action (abyssed). He certainly is not abyssed now. He's more active than ever.
If I have time I'll check out Riddlebarger's Blog, but time is of the essence. I'd rather read what you have to say.
Pam
Pam,
Happy Thanksgiving. Good to hear from you again. I remember the days of working late. There just was never anything good on TV.
I’ll just jump right in.
1) “Christ is indeed a "sufficient Savior." His sacrifice has covered all sin that we inherited from Adam, the sins that sometimes we aren't even aware that we are committing--there are so many of them. But Scripture indicates that there is a type of sin that Jesus' sacrifice does not cover, and not because his sacrifice is not good enough!”
This is not Substitutionary Atonement, although many Evangelical churches would probably agree with you. However, Substitutionary Atonement is a Reformed Protestant teaching.
Sam Waldron's explanation of this most wonderful teaching done at Building Bridges Conferencde is simply excellent.
http://lifeway.edgeboss.net/
download/lifeway/corp/
Waldron_The_atonement_design_nature_and_extent_hi.mp3
Your separation of Christ’s ability to bear the wrath of God in behalf of His people from His priestly office from His power to raise the spiritually dead ties in with your view of man. It seems to me that you do not have a proper understanding of the sinfulness of man.
You said, “You say that Christ is "able to take wicked dead rebellious sinners and justify them by faith alone." Why would Christ want to?”
I am not denying regeneration or the new birth neither am I deny the doctrine of sanctification. But this statement seems to be presupposing man is sick and needs help to get over his sin. Man does not need help. Man needs resurrection.
You also deny the ability to save a man perfectly when you speak of the warning passages of Covenant breaking such as Hebrews 6. This seems to be because t\we are able to commit the “unpardonable sin”. Jesus is all-powerful. He may save anyone He chooses.
2) As for your statement on the Millenium, “You mention my viewpoint is being of "very recent origin." Not so....I go back to everything the entire Bible says. What I believe rests on what the Bible has taught for thousands of years.”
Keep in mind that Charles Taze Russell predicted Christ’s Second Coming in 1859. When that didn’t happen, it was said that Jesus came invisibly and that in 1914 Jesus would end the age. Then when Jesus failed to show up it was said He came invisibly. Then we have dates such as 1929 (if I remember correctly). Then the generation date of 1975.
It could be that your view is similar to the Premillenialists of the first couple of centuries, if your view is that after Jesus’ Second Coming only Christians rule with him from Jerusalem instead of the modern Dispensationalists view, which says that ethnic Jews will reign with Him from Jerusalem.
3) “I don't understand how anyone can think that the Millennial Reign of Christ is going on now. Rev. 20 shows that before the Reign starts, Satan will be put out of action (abyssed). He certainly is not abyssed now. He's more active than ever.”
It is because of your Presuppositional approach to Scripture that guides your interpretation. When we allow the interpretative method of the Old Testament to be that of the Apostles, we will see that the entire New Testament teaches the reign of Christ now.
In a debate book on the Four Views of the Millenium I discovered that Christ reigns at the Right Hand of God now. The entire New Testament teaches that the next appearing of Christ brings judgment, salvation, consummation, new heavens and new earth and what has been called the eternal state. The wicked shall be cast out. We shall all be resurrected, some to eternal life, some to eternal death. How could there be another age in which resurrected men rebel against Christ at the end?
The most recent lectures by Riddlebarger deal with the 2 age model taught in the New Testament. There is no secret coming of Christ. At the end of this temporal evil age, there will be a new righteous age in which no evil will ever dwell.
We (all Christians) will live in Christ’s Kingdom with Christ, the New and Last Adam, in the age to come.
God Bless
Howard
“I don't understand how anyone can think that the Millennial Reign of Christ is going on now. Rev. 20 shows that before the Reign starts, Satan will be put out of action (abyssed). He certainly is not abyssed now. He's more active than ever.”
I guess I haven’t really answered the specifics of this yet. You say that Satan is not abyssed now, and that he is more active. Would you consider that John’s Revelation of Jesus Christ is apocalyptic literature? Would you consider that much of that book is symbolic? If you would, please consider some of these other didactic texts.
But before I do that, doesn’t the entire scope of Revelation argue for suffering Christians that Christ sits upon His throne ruling over the nations and subduing them? That through all of the evil that men do, Christ has a purpose in all of it?
1) Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Here, Paul teaches us that Christ’s work on the cross has disarmed the powers of the Devil. He no longer has authority and has been triumphed over by Christ.
The entire Law was also against us due to our sin and God’s holiness. Now Christ has removed that barrier since Christ is the fullness of all that the law pointed to.
2) Act 10:38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Act 10:39 "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Here, Peter preaches the Gospel. Now those who have been enslaved by the Devil are now free. Their freedom is based upon the resurrected Christ. That power that raised Christ from the dead raises Him over the devil and defeats his power.
3) Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Act 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Act 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Act 2:35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."
We often overlook this text. Jesus is said to be at the Right Hand of God. This is a position of ultimate authority. This authority is substantiated by the resurrection itself. It demonstrates His power over all things including death. The resurrection is no small thing. It has much theological implications for how we ought to see Christ.
4) Luk 11:18 "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.
Luk 11:19 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges.
Luk 11:20 "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.
Luk 11:22 "But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.
Luk 11:23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
Here Christ demonstrates His power over the Devil. If we understand this text along with His parables of the nature of the Kingdom in Matthew 13, we see that Christ’s kingdom has come to earth in some sense (the now and not yet tension through the NT). Christ has called us to gather in the elect. He who does not scatters. There is inherent power in the proclamation of the Gospel to bring the application of Christ’s finished work on the cross.
I realize that there are many texts that speak of the devil going after Christians. So you see those texts and say, “The devil still is doing what Rev 20 apparently says he can’t be doing.”
But again, consider that Christ has bound the Devil. Simply because He is allowed to do things doesn’t mean he has the power he once did. We must not only consider the genre of Revelation but also consider all of the New Testament’s teaching on the subject. Hopefully, these few texts will add to the conversation. Presuppositions that we have in our approach to the text will cause us to see things very differently. If we see man as a sinner that needs help, then it is no wonder that we only need a mere creature to show us the way. If we see man as a dead sinner that needs resurrecting, then it becomes more obvious why we need the Eternal Son to come down from heaven in the flesh. The glory of God in Christ fulfills not only all of the law, but is able to save us perfectly from sin as our Eternal High Priest.
5) 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
This perfect man will always remain our intercessor. He intercedes on behalf of all of those who draw near to God. One day, we will rule in the new heavens and earth with Him. Just as we were supposed to do in the first Adam, now we will do so in the Last Adam. For as He is, we shall be like Him in His perfect Federal and Covenantal Head of humanity.
God Bless
Alright. We'll leave it there. I see no accomplishment in debating the point further.
Have a pleasant day.
Pam Tolliver
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