Some years ago the Name of Christ "was blasphemed among the gentiles" (ie: pagans/unbelievers). Amy Grant, a popular Christian artist, had divorced her husband in order to marry a country singer. She actually claimed that God had released her from the covenant oath she took before God and men. Such a thing is not even believed among the pagans, and yet Christians accepted it.
It has been several years since Mrs. Grant did this, but her subjective reasoning is only a sympton of our post-evanjellycal era. God's law is rarely if ever taught. The New Testament is rarely, if ever exegeted. It is very clear that we live in a day of postmodernism where feelings and subjectivism rule the day and "the preaching of God's Word is substituted with relational anecdotal experience, personal happiness programs, and human potentiality makeovers" (Read Steve Camp's Blog for more on this).
This particular post was extremely misunderstood. So I had edited it. Having read Matt's response to my new edition, I must agree, simply because someone misunderstands what is said does not mean it should not be said. Dr. White gave me this same advise. So I will copy something that I have written in the posts:
A man is about to committ an action which will blaspheme the Name of Christ.
God's Law is being violated.
The power of the Gospel is being denied.
The work of Christ is being denied.
The Power of the Spirit is being denied.
God's grace is seen as insufficient.
The gift of Elders and Deacons to the church is being denied.
The gift of God of the local assembly is being denied.
Several of his brothers have attempted to correct him. This correction and rebuke has been offered over several months.
A wife is about to become divorced.
A son is about to have his parents become divorced.
So I pray that God would be merciful and grant this man repentance, lest he be rebuked and Christ's Name be Blasphemed.
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23 comments:
At least you're speaking up and saying something about it! I've been to churches where someone gets divorced and remarried, and everyone talks about how God blessed them!
Meanwhile Bill and Tammy, who attend the same church, shrug their shoulders and say, "Why keep trying? It's so much easier to do what they have done!"
This is where that unpaid bill in the church gets paid. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
How right you are, at what point do we recognize the sin for what it is.
As you are aware we have a similar situation with unwed teenage parents. Do we celebrate the birth or shun the parents.
When did God Change the rules?
It specificlly tells us in the bible what is acceptable and what is not. Why do we think we have the authority to overide or veto the word of God just to make ourselves feel better.
Matt, What a great example to use. Here we have two people. One who is seeking to divorce his wife and remains unrepentant. The other who comes to his elders and seeks to repent of his sins (he was actually willing to confess his sin before the congregation, something I wish we would have encouraged him to do!).
Perhaps we as leaders should discuss these things and seek the Lord's Word in how to gently but firmly deal with our "body's" sin. Perhaps if we affirmed our pastors and not constantly place their "job" on the line for doing God's calling in their lives, then maybe we would have more ministers unabashadly proclaiming God's truth.
Is it to late for a confession? What a great example that would be for the rest of our youth. It also would be the right path for him.
While we are on defiance, What is your opinion of the latest craze on body piercing? At a youth function within the last month, we had a young lady show up with a shirt that showed her middrift and supporting a belly button chain. Is this something we are saying is alright to our younger youth as acceptable when we as Leaders do nothing to restrict it.
I've heard that as long as we are getting them to come to the youth functions we should keep quiet.
I disagree, It only condons
individualism in anything we do.
"Is it to late for a confession?"
I would not think so, but we probably need to involve our Pastor and his parents. It would be a good thing to do. Some might object that we do it front of the whole congregation. I have been in a church where someone confessed his sin. It actually builds the body up.
"What is your opinion of the latest craze on body piercing?"
I personally don't care about the actual piercing. The question is, "Are we dressing modestly?" Scripture is clear in principle. Are we trying to show off these piercings? What is their intended purpose? Are there older ladies who might instruct our younger ladies in this area? Perhaps it is something we can discuss at our youth gathering.
I think we have lost the idea that older people ought to guide the younger people.
"I've heard that as long as we are getting them to come to the youth functions we should keep quiet."
I have been having a lot of conversations with people that deal with this issue. Success seems to be measured in numbers.
If we change the definition of success as preaching the gospel because we actually believe IT is the power of God and not our programs that might attract huge numbers, then maybe we might see real success.
I hate to swing in the way of legalism, but antinomianism perverts the gospel in the other direction.
Can we then say that the harder christian rock bands are wrong in their apperance. Yes, they are spreading the gospel, but at what cost? Am I fortunate that my son will only listen to christian rock or should I be concerned at the apperance and actions of these bands when onstage.
I then could say as those parents with the kids that like the piercing ( which I might add are no worse or better than my kids), I'm just glad they hang around the right crowd.
"Can we then say that the harder christian rock bands are wrong in their apperance."
Quite possibly. I haven't paid any attention to them for years, but I am sure things haven't changed much.
Some hip chick may think, "My half naked body may get them to listen to the gospel." Although she may never consciously say or think that, that is how she may behave.
"Yes, they are spreading the gospel, but at what cost?"
I quite often wonder what gospel is being spread. Any gospel that denies repentance and call to being a disciple, is really only a "please pray the sinners prayer with me so I can chock up another number of success" gospel. That gospel has no power.
"Am I fortunate that my son will only listen to christian rock or should I be concerned at the apperance and actions of these bands when onstage."
Here is where I have often struggled. I believe that the church is defined by the gospel. On the other hand, is it really so bad to live in a "christian" culture that entertains us and provides "programs" for youths (ie: going to Horn Creek and singing along with a worship team)?
Gentleman,
I think that we need to be careful when it comes to legalism. There is one thing I tell my church all the time and that is to keep it simple. The message of Christ is simple and when man gets involved, we just cloud everthing up. As a result, Christians can easily get caught up in pointing out others faults and loose focus on keeping our selves in check. I am not a scholar nor do I proclaim to be one, but if we find a leader in the church in sin, we need to remove him from his or her position and let the pastor deal with it. When others get involve, legalism can start to take over and then gossip follows. We need to pray that the Lord will give the pastor wisdom to handle the problem swiftly and Christ like.
Howie you once said to me that “we can not separate the message from the messenger” and that is very true. We need to teach our youth to dress and act in a Christ like manner, so that they will be ready to lead by example, the youths coming into our church wearing the multitudes of piercings and inappropriate clothing. Empower our youth with Christ like faith and let them make the difference. We just need to watch over them very carefully to protect and empower them and not to be come obstacles to them.
Blessing to you all!
"I wonder, Is it your desire to remove this man from the church body or just remove him from his duties of the church?"
It has never been my desire to even deal with this. I just assume rather do something else. But my desires are irrelevant. What does Matthew 18 say? What does Paul do in the Corinthian church?
"Who are we to judge whose sin is the greater sin? Are we not all guilty of sin? I know I am. So should I be removed from the church? If so the curb side will be pretty crowded."
This is a pretty common objection. Fear of doing right because someone may point out some past sin of our own.
If someone has repented of their sin of rape that they committed years ago, I would be more than happy to incorporate that person into the local body. If that same person falls back into that sin, should I just let "Let God deal with this man in His own time and way."
God has given to the church Elders (pastors) and Deacons to assist God's people in their sin. I am not for putting people out of the church at all, but instead I would like US sinners to deal honestly with our sin. Not repenting of our sin is to disobey God's commands. Continuing in our sin is not the way to go.
"I think you should take a look in the mirror, if you can see past the log, before before pointing out the speck in anothers eye."
Believe me when I say in having to speak about this, it makes me look at every little thing I do.
"I believe we are to hate the sin and love the sinner."
Ok, should we ignore sin when someone refuses to repent of it? In my experience, there is always secret sin that causes these things. As Jesus said, "A little leaven, leavens the whole lump." If Jesus or the Apostles were here, what do you think they would say?
Would they simply say, "Ah, this man has been struggling with his temptation for long enough time. Let's give him a break and let him continue in his sin."
"There are divorced people in the history of every church. And many remarry in the same church. Can they not still serve God?
Who is arguing this? I never did.
"Let God deal with this man in His own time and way."
I agree that we have to do this to some extent. But to ignore God's clear commands in dealing with sin in the local body is to ignore God's way with dealing with sin. The above statement assumes ignoring a man's sin and letting him deal with sin on his own is God's way of dealing with it.
Is it God's way of dealing with sin by ignoring it?
God Bless
Howard
Howard, you seem quite poised and ready to lead the charge in an attempt to have this man publicly "stoned" before the congregation. In fact, since you intend this blog to be for your local community, it looks like you're beginning the process right here.
As for me, I am going to stick to what I know to be absolutely true. First, it doesn't take much more than a casual familiarity with this church to know the identity of the man you're referring to. I know the family well and I'm sorry for what they're going through, especially their son.
Second, I know the couple has been living separately for several months.
Third, I know this man continues to attend church (often with his wife and son), but not as regularly as before they were separated. (could discussions such as this one have contributed to that?)
That's pretty much all I KNOW.
I don't want to know the details. But, for the sake of your credibility, Howard, I'm hoping you personally KNOW much more than I do about this situation to feel justified in writing about it in such a way. I hope you were courteous enough to contact this man prior to writing about him in such a not-so-anonymous forum. Only by doing so (assuming he would trust you enough to confide in you) could you be sure you KNOW the circumstances here well enough to so boldly and publicly accuse this man of a specific sin. Is he aware even now of what is being said here?
I have no problem calling sin what it is. God's Holy Word clearly defines sin for us. But, notwithstanding the very good point that was made about looking beyond the log in my own eye first, I would want to make VERY sure I know exactly what I am talking about before I publicly shout out my brothers name and call him to repent for a specific sin.
Matthew 18 eventually calls for the church, if we haven't "won our brother over", to "treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector". If you or someone else decides to "tell it to the church", regarding this man, will you do it during a worship service with the TV camera and the radio station getting it all down? I wonder how others struggling with their own sin will feel witnessed to if such a thing happens?
I would encourage you, Howard, to make every member of the church aware of this blog. Because regardless of your disclaimer, you are every bit as much associated with this church as the man you're talking about. I think the congregation should know how one of their deacons is "reaching out" to one of his own.
Fish --
It's one thing to divorce and another entirely to say, "God let me off the hook". I have to say that I thought it was a tragedy until she went on national television to put the words her brain produced ahead of the word of God.
God have mercy on her.
After reading Robert's post, what seems to be the focal point is me. So let's go back and review.
A man is about to committ an action which will blaspheme the Name of Christ.
God's Law is being violated.
The power of the Gospel is being denied.
The work of Christ is being denied.
The Power of the Spirit is being denied.
God's grace is seen as insufficient.
The gift of Elders and Deacons to the church is being denied.
The gift of God of the local assembly is being denied.
Several of his brothers have attempted to correct him. This correction and rebuke has been offered over several months.
A wife is about to become divorced.
A son is about to have his parents become divorced.
Yet somehow, I need to pull some log out of my eye. Believe me, I do not want to be "legalistic". Believe me that this makes me look at my own temptations and sin.
By your statement, you have implied that I need to remove the log in my eye. If this is the case, I would hope someone would correct me that I might repent of my sin too.
"I think the congregation should know how one of their deacons is "reaching out" to one of his own."
I have no problem with this either. If calling a brother back to repentance is un-Biblical, then I would stop immediately.
God Bless
I would encourage the church to apply the instructions in Matthew 18 to the full measure here. What are you waiting for? Why mess around with this idea in a blog? We have a deacon who desires nothing more than to see God's instructions followed. Not only by this man, but also by the entire congregation.
Howard, what are you waiting for?
"Howard, what are you waiting for?"
Scripture has a procedure. I am in the midst of that now. So yes, I am not just sitting here blogging.
If you'd like, I could discuss this via private email instead of arguing on the Blog.
"If you'd like, I could discuss this via private email instead of arguing on the Blog."
I didn't realize we were arguing, but if you would rather limit your blog to only those opinions in line with your own, ok.
"I didn't realize we were arguing, but if you would rather limit your blog to only those opinions in line with your own, ok."
Robert, your prior post seems obvious to me that you are upset. You seem to think I am just sitting here writing a Blog as if I was out to crucify someone. I simply can't begin to reread my original post and come to those conclusions, but that is obviously how you take it.
You seem upset that a man is not allowed to secretly divorce his wife. You seem upset that the Gospel isn't just making people feel good.
The Gospel is offensive. It offends me because it tells me things about myself that I don't like. But running away from sin is not the answer. The gospel is what frees me from my sin and empowers me to do what is right.
Nothing would bring me more satisfaction than to see this man return to sanity. Yes, steps are being taken. You seem to be upset that the Matt 18 principle would be followed. Don't worry, it will be and is being done.
You may express your opinion. I am just curious why you seem so hostile. Several people including my pastor and myself have asked this person several Biblical questions. He never offers Biblical answers. He is intent and bent on doing what he is going to do.
So what would you have us do?
First of all, I am very disappointed you retrackted any of your original blog Howie.
Why are we so afraid to call it as it is? If it is as a couple of you have said, just let God take care of it. Why then do we need a pastor to preach to us every week. Why do we need Deacons or Elders, for that fact why did God give us a Bible?
We'll let him take care of it.
HE DID! Read your Bible! We are commanded to take care of our flock. We are commanded to Guide and direct those we are put in leadership of. If we do not then we will have to answer for it.
This is not something to take lightly in the position that God as instructed us to do. I'm sorry we have to deal with this I myself would rather playing ball with my son.
When we refer to all sin as equal, that maybe so. But, think about this, this individual is planning his sin.
In reference to log in one's eye.
Plenty of you know me, I welcome no I demand as a fellow christian please point it out to me. If not you are not my brother, you don't care about me!
I agree with Matt. :-)
On the subject of being modest -
I have talked about this within my small youth group discussion time before. I do agree with Howie when he says > I personally don't care about the actual piercing. The question is, "Are we dressing modestly?" <
It really comes down to the question, is what we are doing pleasing to the Lord? The most important person we have to answer to is God. There is one exception ,I believe. If what you are doing causes another to stumble in their walk with Christ, dont do it. What is it worth?
This is a subject that as a teenager, I especially need to spend time praying about. It is hard to know where to draw the line for teens. Standards are constantly changing and new things have become acceptable. You are specifically talking about belly piercing but there was a time when piercing even your ears might have been looked down upon as worldly and rebellious. So where is this line? Do you have some biblical references you could give me Howie? Matt?
Thanks Guys!
Park??
You are an exceptional young man, Don't let anyone change you're standards. Alot of people change their standards when they do not want to follow the truth. Don't fall into that trap, it will not end until you hit bottom. I remember when I was you're age, it was tuff and I was not near as strong and educated in the Bible that you are. I wish I would have been.
The whole issue of piercing or dressing modestly is as you said not pleasing to God. Anything you do that draws attention to yourself and away from God is Wrong. I will get you the scriptures to back that up. It was only a few months ago that this was the topic of one of my S.S. classes.
Attention to you and away from God? I never thought of that. Thanks Matt! Ill wait for those references!
"But, for the sake of your credibility, Howard, I'm hoping you personally KNOW much more than I do about this situation to feel justified in writing about it in such a way."
I am not positively sure who Robert is, but I do know it is not Pastor Bob. The posts with the name Robert sure seem to attempt to impersonate Pastor Bob.
Does Robert wish to reveal who he truly is? I've got the feeling we all already know.
After today's events Robert, yes I do feel correct in writing about this the way I did. I wish now I never went back and edited my Blog. For it now seems to me, the misunderstandings were intentional and not caused by something I said.
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