First the question must be asked. Who is this mystical Magesterium? How did they get this special knowledge? How did they get infallibility?
Aside from those questions, some thoughts came to me the other day while driving the countryside. I would like to use an analogy that may explain something of how God’s people come to recognize the Canon of Scripture.
Let’s say Peter has a disciple named Frank. Frank has been listening to Peter’s Apostolic preaching and doctrine for several years. He follows Peter to a particular church named Remote Church. After establishing the church, Peter goes on a trip back to Jerusalem.
Some time later Peter remembers Frank and the others at Remote. He wishes to instruct them by way of reminder. So he writes a letter, which we call 1 Peter. This letter is received by Frank and is read before the whole church. Since the church regards Peter as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, anything he teaches is considered authoritative as if Christ Himself had said it.
So at this point I must ask, “Does Frank and the rest of the church recognize this as Scripture, or do they need an infallible magisterium to declare that?”
Some time passes and the church of Remote begins to also receive Paul’s letters to the churches. This church knows Paul is an Apostle. They receive his letters as Apostolic doctrine and with the authority of Christ.
Some time later, Peter remembers again this church of Remote and decides to send them a second epistle, which is later named 2 Peter. Peter states in this Second Epistle:
“Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
Peter specifically refers to Paul’s letters as Scripture. Now were Paul’s Epistles Scripture before Peter said so, or did Peter have to have infallibility to say so? Did the People of God already recognize them as Scripture, or did they wait for an official pronouncement? Even if one says Peter must have told them infallibly, how do we know Peter is right? The question is only pushed back one step.
Now I am not saying God used some purely mystical Gnostic and purely subjective means of bringing the people of God to recognize His Word. But does not the Spirit of God have the ability through the means He has employed in history the objective and subjective means of bringing the people of God His Word?
My argument is simple. If God’s people are able to recognize just one book of the Bible as Scripture without an infallible Magisterium, then the Canon is knowable.
7 comments:
Dear Howard:
I find joy in our dialog addressesing your responses to postings on Tiber's blog; however, I'm not sure whether you intend (by your posting references to that dialog here on your blog) to invite my commentary here as well, as a sort of parallel or continuation of our dialog in progress.
If indeed that is your intent, I respectfully must decline carrying on *this* particular dialog in two venues.
It seems neither practical nor wise to remove our discussion from its context. please consider:
A.) It makes it more difficult for us to follow the conversation. Questions posed and points positied in one venue might be missed--making it easier for us to miss or mistake one another's meanings. This would do us both diservice. More importantly, it would do truth diservice.
B.) We can expect that most people who try following our conversation would soon get quite lost.
Additionally, in truth I must confess to a more selfish reason as well. Though I pray about whatever I write and attempt writing according to my best understanding of truth and with humble spirit, I often fall short. I recognize my motivation to limit the broadcast range of my shortcomings.
I humbly ask that if you do indeed wish to continue with our dialog, that we keep preserve its context and venue.
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I truly appreciate your blog. I'm humbled by youracute zeal for the Gospel and your consistant testimony to Christ's gift of salvation.
May we all continue to grow in understanding, by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit, the cleansing of our minds by Jesus, the Logos, by the grace of God the Father.
Respectfully,
--Theo
Theo,
Two things.
First, this is my Blog, and I have friends (church and otherwise) and family that read it. My Blogging on my life and views has been mainly for them. My entires were not really intended for you per-se. Many people struggle with the issue of authority. As I have stated many times. Most of my Christian friends would have no idea how to resist the "infallible fuzzies" argument that undergirds Roman Catholic thinking. Why? Most people do not discuss such issues and are therefore ignorant of them.
(FYI: Please keep in mind, you are dealing with a presuppositionalist.)
Do you really think Tiber would appreciate me writing all of this on his Blog? Probably not. I would try to not be that rude in doing something like that.
Second, Blogs are lousy for long discussions that can get into detail. They have become discussion boards without a proper board formatt. That is why I gave the link to a site that I though could handle it a little better. Although some may not like the pop-ups, I do not have the money to spend on an unadvertised board.
God Bless
Howard-
You said:
"But does not the Spirit of God have the ability through the means He has employed in history the objective and subjective means of bringing the people of God His Word?"
Excellent work! Yes...the Holy Spirit is the medium of Jesus Christ and how we hear the Word of God...
If I had to still weed through the monumental "books" and awful sermons I heard through the years in the Roman Catholic Church...I would never have become a Christian because I heard nothing but sacraments,prayers repeated over and over, and sermons based on someone's personal experience...always a personal story never any meaning I could learn something from. Then I prayed and prayed and decided to open the Bible and read it! With the learned Christians that came into my life as a study group, I now have a faith stronger than I ever imagined and an ability to grasp some of the topics that I never understood before.
The "Peter the Rock" verse is twisted to use against fellow Christians as an almost guilt trip...they are poorly teaching (in my experience) that Jesus is the Messiah and the HOLY SPIRIT is the medium he teaches us through. They act like without their teaching body... we read the bible and just come up with whatever we want. I read their own writers, Protestant writers, and do whatever research I need to do as the Holy Spirit guides me. I have NEVER read the "Peter the Rock" verse and understood it as they preach. Jesus is the Rock and if you try to twist it...well...you aren't teaching the Truth!
I have met MANY true Christians who are Roman Catholic AND I have met many Roman Catholic's who are bent on looking down on non-Roman Catholics and/or blaming us for the break-up of the Roman Catholic Church.
What will happen if all of the churh's come together? Will some miracle happen or don't they believe in Divine Providence? Do we need to reflect on the reasons why the Reformation took place?
Nice blog...nice work! Compliments are hard to come by...but you get one from me!
In Christ,
John
John,
Thanks for the compliment.
Also since you mentioned the "Peter is the Rock" verse, I thought I'd let you know of an excellent book by william Webster called "The Matthew 16 Controversy: Peter and the Rock".
It goes through the church fathers of the Patristic Period and gives lengthy citations and sound arguments as to what they believed about that verse. A little dry reading, but worth it.
Also you said, "They act like without their teaching body... we read the bible and just come up with whatever we want."
This point needs to be driven home. The RC's misrepresentation of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura needs to be honestly examined. They simply can't afford to do that though.
God Bless
Howard
An ananomous poster said...
"I have met many Roman Catholic's who are bent on looking down on non-Roman Catholics and/or blaming us for the break-up of the Roman Catholic Church."
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Dear ananomous friend:
I am saddened by your report of Catholics "who are bent on looking down on non-Roman Catholics." Let's pray that they repent and heed Jesus' commandment: love one another that your joy may be full.
I offer a suggestion you might find helpful, should you encounter these folks again: You might try reminding of Mother Theresa's mission to terminally ill and homeless Hindu "untouchables." She pointed out that God created all of us in His image. Though only God can judge, I'd suspect that those who profess Christianity, and by reason of their faith hold themselves better than others, risk judgement themselves.
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Regarding blame for the reformation...
I'm astounded any Catholic should be so misguided. If you meet these folk again, you might try reminding them that the Reformation cannot be "blamed" on Protestants. The Reformation *produced* Protestants; however, the reformers were themselves Catholics. Blaming protestants for the reformation is akin to blaming a kitten for being born of a cat.
Respectfully and with prayers for Christ's loving blessing upon you,
--Theo
Theo said, "Blaming protestants for the reformation is akin to blaming a kitten for being born of a cat."
True enough. Luther never imagined that his posting on Wittenburg's door would have caused such a firestorm. The time for Reformation had been brewing for a long time.
Luther's original desire was to have the church reformed by the Scriptures. But as we have seen, because of the view of authority, that simply is not possible.
Many in the "Catholics and Evangelicals Together" are attempting what I think is impossible. Protestants will have to give up Sola Fide to make it work. If they do that however, they will cease to be Evangelical.
This may sound harsh ,but it is the Gospel that defines the church. It is not Trinitarian baptism or any other idea. It is the Apostolic Gospel message that defines true baptism and the church and who is and is not Christian.
God Bless
Wow!
I truly appreciate that post Howard! I believe you communicated your perspective very well and with a righteous, humble and Christ-like spirit. I'm not in full agreement (of course you're not surprised); however, I'll offer my commentary when I've a little bit more time on my hands.
With renewed prayers for God's blessing and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our communication, I remain your friend in Christ,
--Theo
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